SPEAKER_00 0:35

Welcome to Amplify Your Authority, the podcast where innovative marketing meets heart-centered entrepreneurship. Join Marissa Shadrick, an award-winning international speaker, Ray Edwards certified copywriter, and personal brand expert. You'll gain insights into the external strategies for business growth and how to navigate the internal journey of entrepreneurship. Now get ready to amplify your authority in a competitive digital world. And now is your host, Marissa Shadrick.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Hello and welcome everyone to another episode of Amplify Your Authority. I'm so excited that you are here.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

I'm just checking to make sure that everything is recording and streaming correctly because I'm not seeing all the buttons yet, but I see it now. So welcome. I'm Marissa Shedd, an online marketing consultant and certified copywriter. And with me today is the lovely Kathy Farah. Kathy, would you welcome everyone and introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_04 1:31

Welcome. I appreciate you guys coming back and listening to Marissa and I uh go back and forth on these things. I'm Kathy Farah. I'm a convert kit email strategist, and companies hire me to help them with their email marketing, uh landing pages, re-engagement, uh, and so on.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Yeah, I love having Kathy as a uh well, let's the word this correctly, guest co-host for Amplifier Authority. She shows up once a month when we talk about copy simply because she's got so much expertise and it's nice to kind of banter back and forth, talk about copy together, and you sort of eavesdrop and listen to the conversation as we talk about it. Because we were doing this anyway. Whenever we got on Zoom, we talk shop. And I thought, why don't we just record it on the podcast? That would be fun. So it's gonna sound like you're eavesdropping into a conversation, but trust me, we we are organized, we do have notes, so it's not completely random. And today we're gonna talk about bullets, bullets, bullets, bullets. I love bullets. How about you, Kathy? Do you love bullets? Is that what it's yes?

SPEAKER_04 2:39

I love bullets, you know, it just it makes it things so much easier to scan through things, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:46

I know. I call them cousins to headlines, they're kind of in the same family. Yeah, cousins to headlines. So today we're gonna talk about bullets, and then we're also going to do a copy critique, which you could do too. What we do is we have links in the show notes, and people can join our podcast community and they can submit a live opt-in page or their home page if they like for critique. And so you fill out the form, you give us a live URL, a link, and then we critique it on the show. And trust me, we're kind because there's always there's always great points, right? Great points, and we want to be able to share with you all the strong pieces of your submission, and also if there's room for a little bit of improvement, we want to do that too, because we want everybody to succeed. So I'm excited to get started and talk about bullets. So Kathy, why don't I have you sort of lead the way? How would you like if somebody said, What's a bullet? Let's let's start from the beginning. How would you describe a bullet or the skeleton of a bullet? You know, what what's some a simple, simple way to explain what a bullet is?

SPEAKER_04 4:03

A bullet is going to be essentially little mini headlines. It gives you an opportunity to, you know, kind of in a quick digestible way, um break up really thick copy in something that's a lot easier to read. And generally, these are things that you're really making some strong benefit statements uh related to sales copy and that type of thing. So a bullet is really just a lot of little headlines, essentially, to grab somebody's attention.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

That's the way I see it. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's kind of I I really hesitate to say it's a list because I don't want people to start saying, oh, I could just make a list of these things because that's where the error falls, right?

SPEAKER_05 4:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:53

But it it resembles a list, but it's so much more. Each one of the bullets in whatever section you're writing is able to, again, like Kathy said, break up blocks of text or thick text. We never want to have, you know, big blocks of text, even though some people maybe narrow the margin and maybe they can see it well on a mobile phone. It's just too much. When our eyes are scanning left and right, it's too much to kind of follow along. We just we kind of like zone out.

SPEAKER_05 5:27

It really is.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

Yeah, for sure. So that's the number one thing that bullets are a great way to highlight in a way because people don't necessarily read all your copy. I hate to break the news to you.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

What they don't do, I mean, can you speak into that? Do you find that's the case?

SPEAKER_04 5:50

Yes, I would say so. And I mean, really, if you think about your own way of reading content, we skim through things to see if there's value in what we're gonna read. And honestly, it's it's funny, even just as you know, doing copywriting, it's just changed the way like it almost immediately when I see a really thick block of text, it just almost is like, ugh, where's the, you know, where's I know where's this broken up? I want the white space, you know, it's interesting. So I would definitely agree that's yeah, you don't read all the way through, you look for what matters to you.

SPEAKER_03 6:26

You know, and we're trying to be honest with you because we want you to understand it's everyone, not just you. They're not gonna read everything. However, bullets is a great way to stimulate intrigue and catch their attention because, like Kathy said, they're gonna scan first. And if the bullets are positioned correctly, if you even use bold text in some bullets, they can scan and they can almost get a feel of what the rest of the copy is gonna say. So we want them to linger because they're only gonna visit a site, regardless of what it is, for a few seconds. So we want to use the headlines and the bullets in a way that will cause them to pause and to linger and obviously to really, I hate to use the word, but you do control their attention with bullets because once they see a set of bullets, they may scan down at the next set of bullets. Do you feel like that's correct? That it will help control maybe their attention a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 7:29

Absolutely. And when you space things in such a way where maybe there's a very short paragraph, and then you've got a few bullets, and then a very short paragraph and a full few bullets, that sort of rhythm will get somebody to scan the bullets. Usually they're gonna look there first, and especially if you have something highlighted, bolded that kind of grabs attention that shows it it's gonna connect to what I may be interested in, what I'm looking for, I may go back up and read those paragraphs that are above the bullets once I've sort of identified that this is something that I am interested in learning more about.

SPEAKER_03 8:09

For sure. And you hit it on the nail when you said, you know, our own behavior, we scan and bold pops out. So using bullets and they need to be very um, they need to be benefit driven or has to let me let me back up. Benefit driven depending on what you're trying to accomplish with that set of bullets, because different bullets can accomplish different things. For example, testimonials can be put in bullet form or features can be put in bullet form, but it depends on where you're gonna have it, because you can have it in so many different places. That's why bullets are so wonderful, they're so versatile. You can even have it on the back cover of a book. So depending on where you have it, is going to determine like what type or what theme of bullets they're going to be. Are they gonna be pain driven or benefit driven? So the umbrella to all this is that bullets trigger emotions, which is what we're trying to do. Right. We're trying to trigger emotions because that's what's gonna cause people to linger. So, um, so Kathy, let's move into um why are bullets effective? We kind of teased it a little bit when we explained about bullets, but let's talk a little bit about the the pain and benefits and explaining features, you know, how we group these bullets. How do we group these bullets?

SPEAKER_04 9:33

Yeah, I think when you're working on different types of copy, um, sales copy a lot of times is a really great place where you're, you know, breaking things down when you're looking at like a benefit of a product and you're sort of breaking down that benefit. Bullets are a great place to kind of break down those benefits. Um, addressing uh pain points of why somebody may want to take some action, it helps them identify um, you know, why that this oh, these are the pain points I feel, and you know, I would like to what's next, you know. So you can break it down in different ways like that.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

Yeah. So if we speak specifically, it might be easier to kind of explain it. Like on a sales page, you may start with pain bullets. Because if you understand your audience really well, you're gonna know maybe what the struggle is, not just the external struggle, but the internal feelings that are going on with them because of this external struggle. So if you can, if you can very succinctly explain, you know, and you often see if you struggle with, that's a poor way to write it, but you get the idea. If you struggle with and you begin to highlight these things that you know your audience is struggling with, then all of a sudden they're gonna self-identify and go, oh gosh, gosh, that's me. And then when they go down to the benefits, like what you were talking about, Kathy, what do you suppose they're gonna feel when they see all those bullets that are benefit or result driven? How are they gonna feel when they get to that?

SPEAKER_04 11:13

Yeah, you're now gonna feel like there might be a solution to solve my pain point. Yeah. And you're especially if you're able to drive those benefits down to okay, it's addressing like, oh yeah, I'd like to be able to fix that. That's gonna help me fix this problem and so on. And it's gonna list it in such a clear way.

SPEAKER_03 11:33

Mm-hmm. Like for example, weight loss. Let's just take weight loss. Okay, oftentimes people don't just want to lose weight, they want to maintain the weight. So if you show a bullet that has a benefit that they can lose, maybe say they lose um, I don't know, three pounds a week. So what's that? You know, over 10 pounds a month and not only lose and reach your goal after 90 days, but maintain your weight even over the holiday season, you know, now they're seeing a deeper benefit. So that's what we're talking about is that it needs to be not just you can lose weight, all right. Next bullet, no, something else. You know, you want to finish that bullet, it's almost has has a rhythm. You start with the benefit and then you give them the result of that benefit. So it needs to be completed. And I think that's the number one thing I see in bullets that they start right with a benefit, but then they kind of stop. We need to show a benefit and then the result of the benefit, right? For example, like let's figure weight loss. Let's let's camp there for a minute because that's that's a little easier. But if I walk, right, you're a walker, Kathy, too. Yes. If I walk every day, I'm gonna feel some immediate benefits. I'm gonna have maybe a little bit more energy. I'm gonna give myself a pat on the back for doing it because I don't want to do it, you know. So all of those are benefits, but long term what could we say about long term, Kathy? Not only the immediate, but long term if they're walking.

SPEAKER_04 13:11

Yeah, you're healthier, you feel healthier, you know. Maybe you're addressing some health-related issues that suddenly become like a benefit. Your mindset sort of changes, you know, you start to feel more positive. And oftentimes, like with walking, for me, a lot of times it sparks creativity. Yeah. You know, just getting out in nature and being able to, you know, walk and think about ideas, it just kind of comes to life, you know. So there's other benefits that you can kind of highlight that helps them feel that deeper emotion.

SPEAKER_03 13:46

And there's been studies too that show people that walk and begin to track maybe their steps, they can um help existing health conditions too. And so the long-term benefit could be also uh prevention of osteoporosis, right? Or it could be um maybe lowering their blood pressure medicine. Those type of things are ongoing benefits for them. So that's what we're trying to do, is not just say you can lose weight, because that doesn't have an emotional connection as much. It's more like a desire of an outcome that they want. But we want to really connect it to something that is gonna resonate with them. And for the ladies, maybe it's looking better and feeling more confident, right? Maybe they're not feeling so confident. So we want to dig in to what are the benefits of this and the outcome. And when we just kind of inject our bullets with these things, they really pop and they really do a lot of the heavy lifting. Don't you agree? I love bullets.

SPEAKER_04 14:48

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. What do you think is the hardest thing to do with the thing?

SPEAKER_03 14:55

What do you think is the hardest thing about writing bullets? I'm curious what you think.

SPEAKER_04 15:00

You know, I think it's probably really needing to write the true amount. Like, you know, like really you should be writing, you know, a lot more than what you're actually using. So if the end result is 10 bullets, you know, I think the idea of writing these, you know, 10, 20, 30 different options to really pull out the best information, I think that's, you know, one area. Um also trying to tie it to like what your preceding sentence is to see does it make sense, does it kind of logically flow? Where, you know, everyone kind of says you'll discover, but does that bullet point, if you were to say you you'll discover and then bullet point, you'll discover, bullet point, does it flow? Or did you kind of lose track of, you know, does the does the sentences still make sense if you were to add your little phrase before each of those bullets?

SPEAKER_03 15:59

I love that. Just writing more, almost like free writing. Like, what can I say about this product or service that I'm providing? What is the pain and the struggle of my target audience? And even what are the objections? And make and just free writing, like Kathy was saying, is write, write, write. And if you could even create, you know, a list of maybe internal struggle, external struggles, you know, those type of things, words that they use, and then start writing, writing a lot over the amount and not judging it, right? Just writing some lines and then going back and see which ones are the best ones might be a good way to get started, right? So bullets can be very effective and they can be normally when you write bullets or thematic, like Kathy was saying, you can you can talk about the benefits or you can talk about the pain, or some of them could be explaining the features. That would be okay then to write about features if you're explaining about the product. If you're at that place on a sales page and you're explaining the product, you can tell them what's included in whatever it is they're buying. So that that's okay in that scenario. So, um how do bullets command attention? I put in here that they conceal and reveal. So sometimes they're curiosity driven too.

SPEAKER_04 17:23

Would you say that's that's also kind of a strategy that sometimes Yeah, you could definitely create some curiosity and say, what's inside? What is that gonna tell me, you know, by the the types of bullets where you're not revealing all of the details in the bullets of what you'll get, just hinting at the idea.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

Yeah. And what I like, the reason why I scan is I like to get to the bottom line. You know, what's the bottom line? Because sometimes sales pages, I mean, Kathy, have you seen sales pages that go on and on and on and on and on again? Yes. Literally, your finger is just like scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. And we want to get down to the bottom of what are you really offering? I don't know, they must be effective. I don't like them and I don't write that long. As long as I say what I need to say, I call it good and call it a day. But some of them just go on forever.

SPEAKER_04 18:14

Well, and you know what I always think of when I start seeing a very long sales page like that, I immediately start going, oh my gosh, how expensive is this thing? It's gonna be very expensive. They're really trying to convince me of something. Um, and I'm not sure if anyone ever reads from start to finish of a very long sales page, but somebody must, right? There's detailed people that will, but I always think this must be very, very expensive. So I want to scroll to the bottom.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

Yeah, me too. And then I start wondering sometimes when they write too much, I get suspicious.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

I'm going, why are you writing so much?

SPEAKER_03 18:57

Are you trying to bamboozle me or something? Yeah, you're overselling me.

SPEAKER_05 19:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

Or are you just stepping keywords and that's why this thing is so long? I just don't I don't see the necessity for it. Because I have I have paid for premium products a lot, thousands of dollars. And it didn't even have to be that that long of a sales page, as long as the benefit and the transformation, the outcome was there, what I was looking for, so it was there, then I was okay to do that. So one of the things too that I love about bullets is they're rule breakers. They don't have to be grammatically correct. Isn't that something? Yeah, yeah. They're so effective that way. And they they can contain more than one sentence. If you do write a sentence, you can have a couple sentences in there depending on where you're using it. So um some of the most common bullets, like I think if you said it, um, here's what you'll discover, you know. Um that's that kind of tease it up, or how-tos. People are familiar with those. You know, how-to bullet, bullet, bullet, or also uh number bullets, right? Here are the five ways you can do something and one, two, three, four, five, it'll show in bullets. So another one that that's one of my favorites, I don't know if you use these, Kathy, is the if then. If you're able to spend you know 30 minutes a week or an hour a week, you know, writing, you can improve your copy by 10% or something. You know, then you'll improve your copy by 10%. The if then. If you do this, then this can happen. If you walk, you know, a mile a day, then your health can increase by a certain percentage or something like that. Do you use those? Do you like those?

SPEAKER_04 20:42

I, you know, I have before, but I don't use them very often, to be honest with you. Like I'll use them, you know, to like break things you'll get. If I'm, you know, if I'm selling something, I might break down the bullets of the things that you're gonna get in this offer. You know, that this yeah is what the price is, and here are the things that you're, you know, this is what it means. Like, you know, what's what's included, um, that type of thing. But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:09

So um let's give them an idea of where we can use bullets and then let's go into our critique.

SPEAKER_04 21:14

So we're places using bullets that that's I have seen them on website landing pages, on opt-ins, um emails.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:27

If they're selling a product, especially um sales pages, the back of book covers, like you said earlier.

unknown 21:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:38

Um all of those social posts.

SPEAKER_04 21:41

Social post, yeah, that's often, right? We a lot of times we'll use them in social posts.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

Yeah. I mean, they're so versatile and because they're so powerful and set they say so much succinctly. Now that is a skill that needs to be developed to be able to say things succinctly because it's not easy. The less you say, the harder it is to write.

SPEAKER_04 22:04

It is. It really is. That's why I love Grammarly, because it does help to kind of remind you like you don't really need all of those words. Start stuffing it with a bunch of adjectives. You can probably drop a few adjectives.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

Yeah. And to get started, I love what you suggested for them to just write, just start writing, no judgment, and think of even objections when you're doing that. What are some of the objections and flip it into a benefit that way you're addressing exactly maybe some. Preconceived idea that they have that's blocking them from moving forward. If you take an objection and flip it into a benefit-driven bullet, that may help as well. But I love that idea and I do that. I just free write or I make a list first, or I just kind of craft some things first. And when I do a lot of headlines, a lot of those can turn into bullets. So it's not waste of time at all because you're only going to use so many headlines. The others can be turned into bullets. So excellent. So today, Kathy, we have a copy critique by Krista Di Marcurio. And she has a lead magnet that she would love us to take a look at. So I'm going to share my screen and then we'll go over this. Let me see if I can find my my share button here. So where did it go? Here it is. No, that script. Hang on just a second. Well, where is my darn share button? Hang on a second. Here it is.

SPEAKER_04 23:38

You have thousands of windows open again.

SPEAKER_03 23:42

I have three monitors.

SPEAKER_04 23:46

That's the problem. Your share button is somewhere hidden.

SPEAKER_03 23:50

Yeah, so let me um let me share here. It's giving me, and the thing is that a lot of these tools um they start updating and then things kind of move around. So but that's okay. I think we got it here.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

There we go.

SPEAKER_03 24:05

So this is her opt-in. This is what she provided for us. So let me see if I can make this bigger because I'm having a hard time seeing it. Yes, please. So we have, let's describe for those that are listening. Let's describe it first. So you want to describe what you see for those that are in listen only?

SPEAKER_04 24:29

Yeah, it starts off with an image, and it looks like she's got um, you know, it's a person holding, so it looks like it's like a magazine, you know, so that's nice. It kind of gives you, I'm sure it's the cover of her opt-in. So that really makes it appear 3D-like. Um, so that's kind of how it starts, is showing the title and the image of her uh opt-in cover, someone holding it. So it kind of gives you that feel, like you can, you know, gives that pop off the page.

SPEAKER_03 25:04

And the image has beautiful uh wine glasses, like a whole cluster of wine glasses with various colors of wines in it. And below there's text that says wine pairing 101. So it's very compelling image. Um I love the image, it's beautiful. Okay, so let's go further so you can describe the rest. What's below it?

SPEAKER_04 25:28

So then below that, there's some uh text. Um, you've got a little little headline and text, and then um the option, you know, to be able to sign up. So you can enter your email address and then your call to action button to send to me.

unknown 25:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 25:50

So the colors are standout. So you've got yellow and kind of a soft pink as well.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

Mm-hmm. It's um it looks like the it's an opt-in form from an email service provider of some sort. So it has a place for the image and then the actual box where the email goes has within it a little bit of text that says, which wine tonight? And then below it it says Chef and Mrs. Chef have prepared for you an eight-page wine pairing ebook to guide you through the process of making your wine selections. Learn tips for choosing the best wine for you, your meal, and your palette. Free plus bonus printable wine pairing grid. And then she has just email, no first name, just email, and then a call to action button that says send to me. That's it. There's no um, there's no really opt-in page to this, it's more of an opt-in form. So maybe we need to explain the difference, Kathy, so people understand. This looks like it came from an email service provider in its actual form. I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_04 27:01

It looks like it does look like the the and the form usually is going to be limited as to how much information you can put in it versus an actual standalone page. Usually you have a little bit more room to add some additional detail and maybe some bullets. But um, yeah, so this does look like it's um the forms usually gives you just uh limited options.

SPEAKER_03 27:30

Right. First of all, I love the idea of the lead magnet. I love because I don't drink wine very often. Um, and don't send me to the store to buy wine because I won't know what to pick, and I will just blunder and I will waste money. So don't send me to the store. So having this guide, I think it's a really great idea because I know uh Krista and they do a lot of culinary video videos and they talk a lot about food and she brings, and this is only because I know her. You can't tell this from you can't tell this from the lead magnet, but I know her that she helps people take the outdoor fancy restaurant dining experience and bring it to the kitchen, right? Oh nice, simplified, but you can't tell all that here. See, you can't tell all that because what we're seeing is the actual resource, which is beautifully done. Love the colors, love the cover, love it, love it, love it. The background is kind of a light rose, like a pink, but the colors are beautiful. Uh, which wine tonight, and she says what this is. So, what she's done with the colors aesthetically, the idea is stellar because again, and plus she includes a printable, something you can put with a magnet on your refrigerator. Very clever, great idea. Perfect for her to offer this because since they do give you know cooking tips, you know, simple tips, and she helps you create these beautiful meals at home, you know, you might want to get a bottle of wine to go with it. So this is really serving her audience well. So those are the positive things I see. Do you see more positive things here from this resource?

SPEAKER_04 29:21

Yeah, I definitely think this is helpful because that's often a question you know, people have is kind of how do you pair your wine? You know, what, you know, does this this type of wine go with fish or chicken or you know, beef? Like, you know, deciding which which wines will kind of complement the food you're um creating, I think is something that people that drink wine do look for. So I think she's addressing the needs of an audience that may be interested in you know learning more about wine and making it simple. I think that's great. And then you kind of have the background. I wonder if it's kind of the the pink is sort of kind of a playoff of like rose, you know, that color that you would typically see, you know, kind of a light pinky um vibe. So, you know, I think I think all of that kind of stands out nicely.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

And so let let's look at this and let's think of because we talked about bullets. What do you think are the problems that people run into when it comes to wine? Now I expressed a little bit of mine. I would totally waste money because I don't know how I just learned that I'm such an idiot with wine that you know, light light meat with light wine, like a white wine and red meat with red wine. I mean, I didn't even know that, you know, what can I say? Yeah because I don't drink.

SPEAKER_04 30:48

Yeah, and I'm not a big wine expert. So it would definitely if I was trying to figure that out.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

But what say if I'm I want to prepare a meal, like say for the holidays, or maybe someone's anniversary, and I want it to be really special, then I just don't know how to do this. And so it's going to create, first of all, some anxiety because I want to pair it well and I want it to be special and I want it to be memorable. And so this would be really helpful for those struggles as well. Can you think of other problems too that people might have when it comes to caring, especially if you don't drink wine very often, you're not gonna know, you know.

SPEAKER_04 31:27

Yeah, yeah. And this would be a great opportunity for bullets where you're talking about those kind of pain points of trying to, you know, you've got a special occasion coming up, you know, what what type of wines maybe it is something like that where it kind of gives a hint um of the different scenarios that you might encounter of when you would be specifically wanting to fry find the right wine pairing.

SPEAKER_03 31:56

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Especially because wine, and I just know from from you know, going with my husband, he understands wine a lot better than I do. But some of them can be really expensive, and expensive doesn't always mean good. Right. Some of the ones that aren't as expensive can be wonderful. So it just depends on where the wine came from, what year it is, and all this other stuff that I have no clue.

SPEAKER_04 32:22

So and so that would be interesting to kind of highlight is which direction is this going in? Is it at a more basic level, or is it giving you some of that information of you know how you can purchase a you know wine that kind of meets your budget? Um, you know, because like you just said, sometimes people think to get a good wine they must they have to spend a lot of money, and that isn't always the case. There are other options.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

And that would be beautifully displayed with bullets.

SPEAKER_04 32:54

Yes, yes, exactly. So kind of highlighting the things they're addressing in their ebook, the scenarios like we're talking about in a bullet, you know, kind of a list of bullets might be beneficial here.

SPEAKER_03 33:09

I think so too. So for those just listening, I think this form is done very well. What I would like to see is more. I would like to see about Chef and Mrs. Chef. I would like to know about who they are. You know, I would like to see the benefits of being able to do this. What are the what are the challenges I'm going to be able to overcome, like I was sharing earlier from this resource? Again, if I was to sell this resource, what else would I put on there to be able to show the value of it? And that's how I have to think sometimes. Like if I was to sell this, what do I need to put on there to show the value? And unfortunately, today it's so congested online that we need to have to treat the freebies like as if we were gonna sell something and provide as much as possible on there on the opt-in page. So this is great. I would just love to see more. And then if she does create a live website, then she can create that custom URL.

SPEAKER_04 34:11

Yeah, and I was gonna say, just like you were saying, without, you know, so if I'm a person, how how do I arrive at this page? So what's my awareness level of who they are? Um, Chef and Mrs. Chef doesn't really give me, you know, an understanding. So having a little bit, like you said, to help build some trust of why I would give my email address for this wine guide versus another wine guide. You know, if they have these, you know, other means that they're communicating, they're more popular in a social setting, you know, as far as like teaching teaching certain things than giving a little bit of information about who they are so that someone um, you know, has trust putting, you know, their email address there.

SPEAKER_03 35:02

I think the only exception, now that I'm thinking about it a little bit more, where you would want maybe just the feels or just the box itself without an entire opt-in page, would be if you're a blogger and you're creating some kind of content upgrade, like you're blogging, you're writing something about the topic, and then there is a field with a call to action that if you put your email in here, you can get this printable and also this free resource. In that situation, I could see that this would work well, and sometimes you can connect your email service provider with your website and have the feels pop in so that there's no barrier, there's not another page they got to go to right there when they're reading the blog post. They can put in their email and get that download. So I think I will say there is a place for this for content upgrade.

SPEAKER_04 36:02

And that's what we don't know here right now. So that that's an excellent point.

SPEAKER_03 36:07

Yeah, that was because I was thinking about that and I thought, well, wait a minute, I do use forms. What do I use them for? And I use them for content upgrade. So I take it back.

SPEAKER_04 36:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So location makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 36:19

Yeah. Or if you're doing some kind of live event, like I know she does videos, if she's doing a live video and she's saying, if you're watching this video, now the thing is if it's an actual opt-in, there's more uses for it. It could be a standalone lead magnet that she can use in other places. But if you're having some type of Zoom call or something and you're presenting something and you want them to just fill out their email and you're talking about wine pairing already, that's kind of like a content upgrade. But if you're actually mentoring and you're helping them and you're audibly on video saying something, maybe this will work too. But I think she could use this more. I think she could use this with an opt-in page, she could use it a lot more.

SPEAKER_04 37:05

Yes, for sure. Because I think she's addressing something that people want to learn more about. So yeah, I think you're right. So it really depends on where she's got it. And if she's getting to sort of sell what this is in another format, and then this is just kind of the X, you know, the step to, you know, get the actual guide. Um, you're right. That would just make sense that she could use just the form itself.

SPEAKER_03 37:30

Yeah. And then again, she can always use the resource as a bonus for something else. And the natural, natural problem that people will have once they figure out how to pair it, how do you make the meal, the beautiful meal? And that's where she can help them too. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:43

So I think that's where her welcome sequence could, after they sign up, can start to go into that too.

SPEAKER_03 37:50

Ah, there we go. Email strategists thinking there. Yep. For sure. You can go from there with the email sequence and do a little bit more with that, huh?

SPEAKER_04 38:02

Yeah. That's taking down that path to kind of get to see. I always think of repurposing things, right? So that's you know, I it was something that she's put so much time into. You'd want to see all the different ways you could repurpose it in different areas.

SPEAKER_03 38:18

Absolutely. I like how you think though. Email, because it's true. You can use an email, you can put bullets in the email. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Now we're full circle. We're full circle. Yep. So um we are almost at the end here because we've been on and we're trying to keep these about 30 minutes. So I just uh appreciate Krista DiMakurio giving us this opportunity to critique it. I think she did a fantastic job. I just would love to see more. That's all. Just love to see more. And in the show notes, I will put a link. We are going to be, Kathy and I are going to be working together. Um, and we're going to be inside of Copy Connection, which is a copywriting course where we show up for QA and critiques. It's not open yet, but there's a wait list because I decided to add um chat GPT and AI component to each module. It's it is what it is, right? That's the elephant in the room. I need to address it. So it needs to go in before we launch it. But the wait list, you can join the wait list to marissa shadrick.com forward slash wait list. And then you will be in the know when we open it up to the public. And it'll be fun. It'll be exciting. Go through various modules. You can go as fast or as slow as you want. You can do one each month, or you can go faster, and there'll be opportunities once a month for QA and also for copy critiques. So, Kathy, do you have anything else you want to add about our conversation today with bullets and Krista's lead magnet?

SPEAKER_04 39:59

No, I think this was all excellent. And it's always nice when somebody submits. So I appreciate uh that she was the brave one of the brave souls that uh saw that we will, yeah, you know, we want to try to help. That's the biggest thing here, right? We want to be able to help people get better at the things that they're doing.

SPEAKER_03 40:18

I think it's beautifully done. If she uses it for content upgrade, I think it's a done deal. If she wants to use it more, like you said, repurpose it, then you know, an opt-in page uh would be a great idea too. Or even, you know, I don't know, you know, what else she sells on the back end, but it could be a way to use an email sequence to sell something else related to the topic. So so yeah, she did a great job. So Kathy, thank you so much for being on today. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 40:48

I'm glad we did this again.

SPEAKER_03 40:50

Yeah, and next time I want to hear what you're working on to see what type of offers you have for everyone. So I'm gonna hold you to it. It's been recorded, it's on here. So it's I'm trapped. Yes, but thank you so much. It really is wonderful to do these with you. I love it. I love connecting with you, and I know it just gives everybody a lot of value. So thank you so much, everyone, for tuning in. I appreciate it so much. Until next time, we'll say goodbye. You want to say goodbye, Kathy, to everyone? Yes, bye. Thank you. All right, take care, bye bye.