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Hello everyone and welcome. Today I have a very 

special guest with me his name is John, Nick John.  

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He is a marketing strategist for business thought 

leaders and e-commerce businesses challenging  

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the status quo with their message. Nick is the 

founder of Upstart Marketer a digital marketing  

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agency that helps businesses integrate SEO into 

their marketing strategy. He is also the host of  

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the Learn Like You Mean it business podcast. 

So you gotta learn like you mean it. A lab  

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for dissecting and field testing business lessons 

from everyday experiences, welcome, welcome Nick.  

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Hi, Marisa so good to see you again. It's 

good to see this as well. Yes, we met  

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through a conference. And he was sitting next to 

me we got into a conversation, and it was just so  

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fascinating to me because a lot of us hear about 

SEO but we're not always sure how to implement  

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SEO really well. So I wanted to continue the 

conversation I thought it would be great to  

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have all of you listen in as I asked Nick some 

questions about that. So Nick I'm so glad that  

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you're here with us today can you just tell us 

first of all how you got interested in SEO? Yeah,  

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so I went to school for English literature because 

I wanted to write a novel and then I had one of my  

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professors say oh yeah you don't need to be uh you 

don't need a college degree to be a novelist, so  

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money well spent. So I had to find a way to like 

you know pay for the tuition and then my friend  

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and that's actually how I got my first job and my 

first crack at SEO for e-commerce. Hey, we need a  

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copywriter, you write, you kind of do it, do you 

want to learn and I had a personal blog and we all  

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start with WordPress. And we all know about Yoast 

and you know that's how I first learned about  

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SEO but gosh it actually turned out to be a lot 

more than that. So I did selling sunglasses for  

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a number of years and that's how I learned SEO and 

I've been doing it now for five years. Wow, that's  

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amazing. Now for the sake of those people that 

maybe aren't sure exactly what SEO is can you kind  

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of land the plane and give us kind of a simple 

explanation of what is SEO and why it's important.  

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So SEO stands for search engine optimization and 

really what it comes down to it's communicating  

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but not with people instead with machines 

algorithms specifically. So what we're doing  

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when we're optimizing for a search engine is 

to use certain communication techniques that  

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the algorithms understand so it understands, oh 

you are relevant for copywriting for example,  

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or you are relevant for whatever your business 

is and really that's what it comes down to. So  

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anything an SEO practitioner does for you is to 

help you gain visibility because they're helping  

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connect what you know with how people are using 

those search engines to find that information.  

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Got you. So when we're communicating to the 

algorithms does it make us sound less human  

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or is there a natural way of doing this so that 

we can communicate with the algorithms but still  

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sound like us when we're talking human to human to 

our audiences? That's a great question. So maybe  

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10 years ago you had to use some really janky kind 

of language to make sure the algorithms knew what  

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you were talking about. We're talking about, like 

you had to use exact match keywords. So if people  

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were looking for how do I take care of my Corgi 

you would have to type out how do I take care  

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of my Corgi like a couple times in the line but 

now you can use a variety of language and this  

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is all because the point of those algorithms 

was to become more human-like and to be able  

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to understand human language as we speak it. So 

now you have the benefit of you know NLP you have  

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all these different techniques and algorithmic 

lines of code to help it understand the way we  

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talk. So you can use synonyms now where maybe 

five ten years ago you couldn't use a synonym  

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it didn't understand that a mitt and a glove 

were the exact same thing, but now it does. Wow,  

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it's amazing right the advances, how much better 

it is now so even somebody that maybe used it some  

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years ago maybe even five years ago, they can 

learn something new today and really Implement  

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and be able to use SEO more effectively as well. 

Do you see a common mistake across the board when  

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people are using SEO or maybe think they are 

but not but do you see common mistakes. Yeah,  

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there are I would say there are two. One is 

they do not link their web pages together  

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so that doesn't help Google understand how your 

content is related to each other. So if you wanted  

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to demonstrate you're an expert in copywriting 

and you had all these copywriting articles but  

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they weren't connected it wouldn't understand 

how they were topically related to each other.  

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I see okay so is it enough to have 

something like Yoast on your website or  

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there's probably more I would guess but it's a 

good start, right? If you remember that Yoast is  

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a tool and so treat it like a ruler rather than 

like an inspector that will be really important  

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and on top of that Yoast is a tool that 

has free features, but ultimately wants  

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you to use its paid version. So anytime 

you're using one of those freemium tools  

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I like to think about what is the business what's 

your business angle how do they make money and  

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then that tells me I have to take what they're 

offering me with the grain of salt because they're  

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trying to get me into their paid product. So this 

is where I don't even use Yoast anymore. I think  

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it's a crutch for a lot of people actually. And so 

aside from the internal links, the other thing is  

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you need to put your keywords that you're 

trying to target in specific parts of your web  

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page. Gotcha! That'll be the title, the URL. 

You'll want it like in your first paragraph,  

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and then you can put it in your H1 that's 

a little bit of coding language but that  

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all helps signal to Google that this is about 

how to do copywriting for missionaries. Right!  

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And when you put it all there it sends a very 

strong signal that this page is in fact about  

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doing copywriting for missionaries. Yeah it's 

interesting how you say H1 is coding and I  

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think of H1, H2 as fonts, of font size 

so much that I know. But in any event,  

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you said that SEO helps us become more visible 

so we're talking specifically organic traffic.  

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Okay so can you explain organic traffic for 

everyone so I want them to really understand  

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how it helps us be visible so when we align 

everything correctly what's so important there  

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so if we're getting organic traffic you know 

we don't want to miss that right? We want to  

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leverage as much as much as possible. Can you 

explain what that is it's not paid traffic it's  

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not it's organic traffic explain it. Absolutely so 

when Google talks about organic traffic or people  

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talk about organic traffic they're talking about 

when you type something into Yahoo, Google, Bing  

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those results that come up are from somebody 

organically seeking out information.  

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And so any organic search traffic is from those 

searches. Now of course on those results pages,  

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there can be ads on the top, on the side, all over 

the place but that is a separate type of marketing  

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where those engines will have we'll say a product 

for marketers like me or businesses like us to  

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bid on those same keywords to try to get your 

business there as well. So organic is totally free  

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if you're doing it on your own and back in the 

day blogging you can make a lot of money being a  

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blogger Because the Internet was a lot there 

was a lot less content so it's a lot easier  

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for people to get their content to rank and 

then you would be able to make money off of  

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basically just the time that you put into any 

content that you created. The number that we give  

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right now for the return on your investment on 

content marketing for organic versus paid search  

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it's like I think it's like six to one, six to 

one in comparison. Okay. So if you're doing ads  

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your how effective it is is only as good as 

the money that you put in. Whereas content  

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marketing and organic search it's only as good 

as the efforts you put into the content. So now  

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that you're talking about content if someone is 

because blogging is not dead people are still they  

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may call it articles or call it something else but 

they're writing content especially writers love to  

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write content and people like to consume content 

differently so when it comes to writing is there  

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a certain length that writers should consider 

to get the most out of that piece of content  

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they've created? Yes, I got two answers for you. 

The longer explanation why, and then we have the  

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short answer like okay just give me just give 

me a number. So the first answer is it depends  

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and it depends because every single keyword Google 

believes that there's a search intent behind  

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and because of that it's going to serve certain 

information and the information that's presented  

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on page you can look at all the results and 

there's going to be an average number of words  

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that comes out so that means that potentially 

the answer can be found in 500 words or even  

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less. And so you might find that one 

of your competitors only has like  

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250 words and that is ranking on the first 

page. The reality is the number that we're  

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going to use is 2 000 words and this is for just 

a general rule of thumb. And the reason for that  

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is Google is looking for qualitative answers 

to these search queries because if it could  

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be answered now in like 250 words it's probably 

going to show up in like the people also ask,  

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or it'll have like that feature of snippet where 

it'll just answer the question for you with that  

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line. That's kind of the way the Google's evolving 

so those keywords that you're focusing on,  

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aim for 2000 words, and that'll help you not 

only articulate and demonstrate your expertise  

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but also be a good amount that your competitors 

are probably also going to aim for it as well.  

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Gotcha that's great that's awesome. Now speaking 

of the way people consume content there's some  

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other ways, so I wanted to see how we leverage 

SEO. One of them is video content. So how what  

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would we do to be able to marry SEO with 

our video content? What's a good practice?  

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So if you're doing video content highly recommend 

you're using YouTube for your both your longer  

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form content and your shorter form content so 

you have YouTube and then you have your YouTube  

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shorts. The reason you're going to put your 

longer-form content on YouTube is because YouTube  

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is it operates actually like a search engine 

for video. And now what you're going to do is,  

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on a web page on your own website, you're going to 

take an embedded link for your YouTube video and  

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put it on that web page and then you're going to 

flush out the content. Something that we did when  

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I was at SporterX my first job is we would record 

videos on like the best sunglasses for fishing.  

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We would do a YouTube video and then we would link 

that video sorry embed that video into our a blog  

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post and then we would elaborate on the answer 

and the reason for that is because the it's a lot  

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to ask an algorithm to understand the content of a 

video it has to understand so many images and then  

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has to contextualize that with the dialogue and 

then it has to understand how that is useful to  

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the people watching it. So it actually doesn't, 

we'll say crawl the video, it actually uses like  

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social signals like likes shares watch 

time those things to help it understand  

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its relevance. So writing is still very important 

because it helps Google understand what the video  

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is about. Absolutely so it's not enough to just 

put it on your website and then maybe have a few  

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little lines you know in this video you're going 

to discover this, this, and this and that's it,  

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It's best to go ahead and put content in there 

like you would like a blog post so that you can  

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leverage that and it can actually help you because 

like you said it can't tell what you're saying in  

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the video. So are the images is it important if 

you put images in there to also you know on the  

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back end how you can put alternate text and is 

it important to take care of all of that it seems  

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like there's so many places that we have to go so 

I'm just curious. Yes it's uh so there's gonna be  

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so many things that you're going to tactically 

do to do SEO the way to think about it is it's  

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one of my mentors said to me doing SEO is like 

collecting pennies to become a millionaire. You  

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do all the right things and then as you do them 

every single time you become richer. So the best  

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practice for your images is to add alt text to it. 

Now one caveat is if you're using um like stock  

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imagery and it's not really related to the content 

that you're writing don't worry about the alt text  

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it's not I mean those images are so broad it's not 

really about what you're talking about. But let's  

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say you have an infographic or something that's 

more dialed into the content by all means have the  

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alt text there so Google knows what the image is 

so you can show up in Google search Google images  

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search and then also that helps really solidify 

your content page. So going back to like videos  

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and how you're going to write around that, you 

wouldn't just leave an info you wouldn't just  

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leave an image on a web page and assume that 

it's like answered for you would do the same  

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thing for the video you would write content around 

that video around those images to have that full  

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experience that you're trying to create. Gotcha 

and I would assume for those that consume audio  

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like podcasts we'd want to do a similar thing 

as well, writing text because we have a player  

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right they'll play the the audio but we want to, 

especially if we have it on our website we want to  

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expand on that and add text as well for the same 

reasons is that correct. Absolutely so we're  

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doing a podcast right now and we'll say the killer 

piece of content for your audience because we're  

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all busy and we don't exactly have like a large 

teams of marketers to do is to have this as a  

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video published on YouTube, have this on you know 

your whatever podcast channel that you choose,  

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and on your web page you're going to have 

embedded YouTube video you're going to have  

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your embedded podcast player you're going to 

have your content, so not your show notes,  

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but like content that really fleshes out like the 

conversation that we're having and you're going  

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to provide a transcript and that'll be your killer 

content page. Okay so transcript is important too?  

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The transcript helps because there is it helps 

Google understand that this is the conversations  

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that are being had in the YouTube video the 

podcast the audio file and then all the original  

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content is to make that page stand out because if 

you just have your web page hosting a video and a  

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podcast the question Google will ask is why would 

I show this page when I could show the YouTube  

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video instead. Or just take them to the podcast 

page so you have to provide something unique and  

0:17:43.380,0:17:49.800

worthy of Google showing it in a search engine 

results pages. And I would imagine because some  

0:17:49.800,0:17:54.240

people might be thinking well that sounds like 

a lot of work but this continues to work for you  

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it's ongoing right? The great thing 

about SEO is if you do the work now

0:18:02.160,0:18:06.840

it pays dividends in the future. We talked 

about paid search how it's only as good as  

0:18:06.840,0:18:16.740

the money that you continue to put in. Right. You 

can do for example at SporterX one of my peers he  

0:18:16.740,0:18:21.960

we had a brand ambassadors and he created a 

piece of content it was called the guide to  

0:18:21.960,0:18:28.380

Oakley prism now that blog actually paid for 

like a third to half of his salary every year  

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because he did the content and he did it once and 

all he did after that was he just continued to  

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update the content as it brought in more relevant 

information. Oh, I see, So once you're the King  

0:18:42.480,0:18:48.480

of the Hill and search engine results pages the 

only thing you can do is lose your position by  

0:18:48.480,0:18:56.100

neglecting it but if you continue to treat it 

as an asset really your website is an asset and  

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you continue to refresh it, continue to share 

it with people, then you're going to get more  

0:19:02.160,0:19:08.760

length and it's going to continue to appreciate 

in value and continue to maintain its position so  

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that means that every time you put out a piece of 

content not only is it a road into your website  

0:19:14.640,0:19:21.360

and a way for people to discover you it continues 

to build out your body of work and appreciates  

0:19:21.360,0:19:27.660

its value entirely. Yeah, that's a good thing so 

whatever we do up front and I suppose when you're  

0:19:27.660,0:19:34.140

even at the very beginning when you're thinking 

about a podcast episode or you're thinking about  

0:19:34.140,0:19:40.260

an article it's probably a good idea to do a 

little research first wouldn't you think to see  

0:19:40.260,0:19:48.000

what are people looking for I would think right? 

Absolutely so there are going to be two ways that  

0:19:48.000,0:19:53.880

you're going to go about that if you're already 

an expert you're going to have ideas of what it is  

0:19:53.880,0:20:00.120

that your audience is interested in what you then 

do is you can use keyword C research to validate  

0:20:01.140,0:20:05.700

how much traffic you're going to get so that helps 

you prioritize which articles you're going to do,  

0:20:06.480,0:20:11.040

which podcast you're going to do. And then on 

top of that you can see what the competitors  

0:20:11.040,0:20:16.200

are doing on the first page it's like oh 

when people ask this it seems that Google  

0:20:17.040,0:20:24.660

believes that this is an important subtopic to 

tackle. So that way even though you can create you  

0:20:24.660,0:20:31.140

know a dozen episodes out of like one topic it may 

make sense to actually consolidate it and put it  

0:20:31.140,0:20:36.480

all on one page and this is especially important 

when you're just starting out you may be,  

0:20:37.440,0:20:44.940

there may be, this like desire to create as much 

content impossible but the issue that we talked  

0:20:44.940,0:20:53.340

about is if it's too thin if it's not like 2 000 

words it's not targeting the intent then you're  

0:20:53.340,0:20:58.740

going to have all these pages that even if you 

link them all together Google doesn't think are  

0:20:58.740,0:21:06.960

qualitative and it will actually not think you 

are an expert it'll think that you have a lot  

0:21:06.960,0:21:11.640

of fluff and then when you end up talking to me 

it's like Oh hey, Nick what can we do like oh we  

0:21:11.640,0:21:17.100

need to consolidate all these pieces together you 

could have just done that at the beginning. That  

0:21:17.100,0:21:22.080

makes sense so let's talk a little bit about uh 

say we've been doing this and we've been doing it  

0:21:22.080,0:21:27.360

a while we want to see how things are performing 

let's talk a little bit about maybe reviewing the  

0:21:27.360,0:21:33.060

historical data can you tell us like how do we do 

that how does that help us what if we don't like  

0:21:33.060,0:21:39.480

the numbers or what can we expect. Oh absolutely 

so there are two free tools that Google offers you  

0:21:39.480,0:21:46.440

for your website that you absolutely need to 

have connected and going right now. The first  

0:21:46.440,0:21:54.540

is going to be Google Analytics uh that's going 

to give you basically information on how people  

0:21:54.540,0:22:00.300

are interacting with your website the other tool 

that's really important is Google search console.  

0:22:00.900,0:22:06.300

And Google search console tells you 

how Google as a search engine is  

0:22:07.140,0:22:12.000

going to your website and interacting with your 

website. This is really important because of  

0:22:12.000,0:22:18.060

privacy laws so Google analytics will tell you 

oh yeah people came to your web pages but it  

0:22:18.060,0:22:24.840

won't tell you what keywords people came in 

on your web pages for. Oh. So, yeah, we may  

0:22:24.840,0:22:31.800

know that you have a really a good page that's 

getting a lot of organic traffic but we don't  

0:22:31.800,0:22:36.720

know why people are necessarily coming there. Now 

if you have Google search console it'll tell you,  

0:22:36.720,0:22:41.340

oh yeah, this page is doing well these are the 

search queries that people are coming in from  

0:22:42.000,0:22:48.360

and it's like okay people are coming to me and 

they're actually not coming to me for copywriting  

0:22:48.360,0:22:55.560

they're actually coming to me because they want 

to know how to grow my business as a Christian.  

0:22:55.560,0:23:02.460

It's completely, those are very different things. 

Yes. And that suddenly gives you insights like oh  

0:23:02.460,0:23:07.260

if I wanted to do more content marketing if 

Google thinks I'm related to the or relevant  

0:23:07.260,0:23:13.260

for this I can build out that content and then I 

can work in my angle as a copywriter as like you  

0:23:13.260,0:23:19.020

know a business developer consultant marketing 

consultant in that way rather than trying to  

0:23:20.520,0:23:25.620

bang at the front door if you will where 

it doesn't seem Google thinks I'm the most  

0:23:25.620,0:23:30.480

relevant for that particular term. Gotcha that's 

really helpful. Wow you've given us so much to  

0:23:30.480,0:23:35.760

think about and I love how you explain things you 

simplify it in such a way that I can understand it  

0:23:35.760,0:23:40.320

if I can understand anybody I can understand it 

but sometimes I get cross-eyed when I'm thinking  

0:23:40.320,0:23:48.120

about SEO so in this journey I'm so excited about 

your business I always love to leave the audience  

0:23:48.120,0:23:54.060

with some encouragement and help them to get to 

know you a little bit. Was it always a kind of  

0:23:54.060,0:23:59.220

an easy path an easy journey for you to get 

to this point were there any challenges that  

0:23:59.220,0:24:04.260

you had to overcome I would love if you would 

share something to just encourage our audience.  

0:24:05.520,0:24:11.100

Oh that's a great question so for me I know 

we've talked about like you know how I got  

0:24:11.100,0:24:18.480

here before the answer I would give is if 

you're uh entrepreneur you have a small  

0:24:18.480,0:24:25.980

team or maybe you're just doing it yourself 

the mindset shift that you need to make from

0:24:28.200,0:24:33.600

thinking that what you have to offer the world 

somebody else could do and it doesn't have to be  

0:24:33.600,0:24:43.380

you you have to set that aside and really go for 

it. It may be true there's a lot of SEOs a lot of  

0:24:43.380,0:24:51.360

great SEOs that can do what I do. The reality is 

there are what's like eight billion people in the  

0:24:51.360,0:24:57.300

world they can't reach everybody what you have to 

offer um and you know we're Christians so there's  

0:24:57.300,0:25:01.740

like this idea of like a Divine appointment in 

sovereignty that God's going to put you somewhere  

0:25:01.740,0:25:10.500

in somebody's life in a particular season for a 

reason. If you're entrepreneurial that's not by  

0:25:10.500,0:25:15.600

accident. If you have an idea to change the 

world that's not by accident and you have to  

0:25:16.920,0:25:22.440

you know pray about it and see where God's going 

to take you on that journey and to go for it.  

0:25:22.440,0:25:29.940

Yeah. Otherwise you're going to be in a corporate 

setting where I'll be honest I came from corporate  

0:25:29.940,0:25:37.080

where making a difference is hard because there's 

so many decision-makers who you know they have  

0:25:37.080,0:25:45.060

different perspectives and you might not be able 

to get what needs to be done done. Right. Well  

0:25:45.060,0:25:52.860

said; great advice. There's a lot of people in the 

world and nobody can share the the information the  

0:25:52.860,0:25:58.500

content the coaching the way you do right because 

it's unique to you and like I said you have a  

0:25:58.500,0:26:02.340

very unique great way you're I think you're a 

teacher at heart because you have a great way  

0:26:02.340,0:26:08.340

of explaining things and simplifying what may 

feel very complex for others and that's what I  

0:26:08.340,0:26:12.840

liked when we were talking at the conference I 

thought oh gosh I understand what he's saying.  

0:26:13.920,0:26:21.960

So, in any event, I'd love to know what you do 

when you're not doing SEO what's what do you  

0:26:21.960,0:26:27.720

do on the times that you're off you know maybe 

after work or on the weekend what's life looks  

0:26:27.720,0:26:36.000

like. I'm curious. Oh yeah, so I'm the oldest 

of six and my family I'm actually the oldest  

0:26:36.000,0:26:42.360

too so my family's younger and we love playing 

board games like Dungeons and Dragons we used to  

0:26:42.360,0:26:47.340

play Monopoly but then you know there's so many 

board games that we just like outgrown Monopoly  

0:26:47.340,0:26:56.460

so gosh actually this past holiday season my 

entire family got together and we're just playing  

0:26:56.460,0:27:01.380

board games and getting fat off of food like my 

family loves to cook I used to be a sushi chef.  

0:27:02.040,0:27:07.080

That's how I paid for college so you know Sushi 

and board games that's all we love to do as a  

0:27:07.080,0:27:15.600

family. Oh that sounds perfect I love spending 

time playing games and lately we've been using  

0:27:15.600,0:27:22.260

Just Dance you know it's a video thing that you 

dance and we've been doing that and I figured well  

0:27:22.260,0:27:27.720

heck it gives me good exercise right after two 

or three of those I'm done you know. So that's a  

0:27:27.720,0:27:33.540

lot of fun and yeah so that sounds great. I love 

it I couldn't ask for more right hang out with  

0:27:33.540,0:27:40.260

family and friends play games laugh relax. That's 

awesome well I'll tell you Nick this has been so  

0:27:40.260,0:27:45.780

informative and I just thank you so much for your 

generosity and just sharing all of your knowledge  

0:27:45.780,0:27:51.900

for all of us. How can if somebody wants to reach 

out to you and they're just stuck with this. They  

0:27:51.900,0:27:58.680

need help. What's the best way for them to get 

in contact with you. Yeah, I'll provide a link  

0:27:58.680,0:28:07.200

but they can basically do 30-minute chat with 

me. Let's get to the bottom of what's going on  

0:28:07.200,0:28:13.740

with your marketing and where'd you'd like 

to be in the next year. The reality is SEO  

0:28:13.740,0:28:17.940

is very attractive it's like one of those things 

that's becoming sexier as like time passes because  

0:28:17.940,0:28:24.360

everybody knows that they are going to need to do 

it. But here's what happens if you just do SEO. So  

0:28:24.360,0:28:30.900

the company that I used to work for they banked on 

SEO and they didn't develop their other marketing,  

0:28:30.900,0:28:40.740

And they were expecting a 10x return on my old 

team and that didn't happen. So what happened  

0:28:40.740,0:28:45.900

was they actually needed to grow their email list 

and they needed to like nurture their team so you  

0:28:45.900,0:28:51.120

you'll come to me and we'll talk and my solution 

for you may not actually be something that  

0:28:51.120,0:28:55.380

is going to be related to SEO it's like hey 

we can bring all this traffic to your website  

0:28:56.220,0:29:00.720

but you don't have something it's going to 

be a leaky bucket. You don't have the next  

0:29:00.720,0:29:04.980

step. So we're talking about like that killer 

page of content that we could create for them  

0:29:04.980,0:29:12.300

but they also need a next step. So let's talk 

because we need to not just think of SEO as  

0:29:12.300,0:29:18.060

like something you can tack on to your business we 

need to integrate it to your products and services  

0:29:18.060,0:29:24.960

and making sure that any investment you put in 

marketing the ultimate returns is like you know  

0:29:24.960,0:29:31.740

revenue and it may not be that SEO is going to be 

the thing that like generates dollars but it may  

0:29:31.740,0:29:37.680

be the thing that helps you grow your email list. 

So let's talk. Let's find out what you actually  

0:29:37.680,0:29:43.980

need and make sure that your marketing really gets 

you where you need to be next year awesome and you  

0:29:43.980,0:29:50.220

help companies but you also help small businesses 

solopreneurs as well is that correct. Absolutely  

0:29:50.220,0:29:57.840

in fact, I would rather I'm always love a David 

and Goliath story I'd rather help a small business  

0:29:57.840,0:30:05.760

owner like have the life that they want and to be 

really able to impact the people that God's put in  

0:30:05.760,0:30:12.300

their life than that corporate giant that doesn't 

really need my services and there's somebody who's  

0:30:13.200,0:30:19.260

who will probably be more than happy to take 

their business. I'll take it if it like I can  

0:30:19.260,0:30:24.060

see like how I can actually make the people I'm 

interacting with like their lives better so they  

0:30:24.060,0:30:29.880

can like spend more time with their family for 

example. Yeah but really really have a passion  

0:30:29.880,0:30:35.400

for helping like-minded entrepreneurs 

like there's something special about us.  

0:30:36.000,0:30:43.620

Yeah for sure. Yeah, and we need...I love 

it...we need more of us and I need I can  

0:30:43.620,0:30:49.440

help you make your marketing work so that's not 

the thing that's holding you back from the life  

0:30:50.460,0:30:59.400

that you're meant to have and to be in that place 

where you can you know be the light to the world.  

0:30:59.400,0:31:06.060

Absolutely. Well said, I love your perspective 

on that because it's the same with copywriting  

0:31:06.060,0:31:11.640

is not a fix-all for everything you have to have 

the other pieces in place so that you can leverage  

0:31:11.640,0:31:17.400

copy and sometimes people will not even sure about 

their messaging, or who their target audience is,  

0:31:17.400,0:31:23.520

and so I totally get it when you say that, I 

love that approach that it's you're going to  

0:31:23.520,0:31:29.700

actually help them assess to see if it's SEO that 

they need awesome but if it's something else then  

0:31:29.700,0:31:34.440

you're gonna point them in the right direction 

and I think that's wonderful. So I will make sure  

0:31:34.440,0:31:41.640

I will put the link in the show notes and my show 

notes are going to be more robust moving forward

0:31:43.800,0:31:50.400

because as a student of Nick's, I'm going to have 

to you know up my game a little bit and do some  

0:31:50.400,0:31:56.940

changes here as you're talking I'm going, Oh boy, 

I gotta fix that, Oh boy, I wasn't doing that so  

0:31:56.940,0:32:02.940

anyway. Nick thank you so much you've been just 

such a wonderful guest loved all the information I  

0:32:02.940,0:32:07.560

know it was really helpful for the audience. Thank 

you so much. Any last words as we say goodbye?  

0:32:12.780,0:32:20.040

Keep moving forward with your business. The 

world needs you, absolutely the world needs what  

0:32:20.040,0:32:26.040

you have to offer. Well said, absolutely. Thank 

you so much, Nick. Take care everyone bye-bye.